From inlaterdays:

[digitaldiscipline]

it seems unreal that someone should be talented and willing to work; have a full-time job, a part-time job, and a roommate, yet STILL be unable to make ends meet, but such is life for too many people in this economy. :/

read about her situation and what she's doing about it in downsize_me...

[the above is quoted, the below is mine]

It's sad and lousy and all the rest of it. . . it's also a byproduct of living where it's too fucking expensive [Metro NY, even in Jersey].

To DS-M: Move. Go somewhere that the cost of living isn't starvation. Your stipulation for the pay scale of part-time gigs is what I make full-time; good luck finding it.

Or, the cynic in me says, write an article for salon.com - they've had a series of essays by underemployed or downsized former-white-collar types, though the authors are often derided for making a mountain out of a molehill; the relative direness of your situation may throw the coddled whiners into a bit sharper relief.

Comments

[ladysoleil.livejournal.com]

There's kind of a bs factor here too. While I can testify that the job market here isn't quite thriving, I can also say that for the past 11 years of my adult life, I've maintained a steady job, a place to live and a moderate amount of creature comforts on a moderate salary. Obviously it's not impossible to survive in the Metro NY area- tons of people manage it daily.

Yeah, we don't have some things. We don't have a car. We don't have a lot saved up. We don't eat out or travel as much as we like, and my husband voluntarily works two jobs, which helps a lot.

I just don't think this is such a terribly expensive area to live in. Maybe it's because I grew up here so I'm conditioned to the cost of living? You'd probably have a more balanced perspective on that, since you came here from elsewhere and made a go of it.

[inlaterdays.livejournal.com]

i can understand your viewpoint, and i know that things are tough all over. this person has special dietary needs, though (she's been through a LOT of health problems, and has worked through all of them), and no one else to help her out - and i really feel for her plight.

thanks to both rafe for passing the link along, and to margaret for the perspective. i think just talking about it is important, whether you agree or not?

[marillion.livejournal.com]

I feel sorry for this person, but there's something about it that strikes me as being a bit off. I'm sorry if this offends anyone, but...

Part of it is that I guess I'm not sure I believe anyone *has* to have a vegan, organic, RAW foods diet that normally costs $25 a day from Whole Foods in order to stay alive and stay healthy. Before anyone gets testy, let me explain:

I know a thing about this and can can relate to it because I, too, have very low blood sugar and have dealt with health issues relating to that all my life. I have had to radically restructure what I eat in order to avoid unpleasant side effects like passing out, and what helps keep hypoglycemia manageable is not a diet primarily consisting of fruits and raw vegetables. Protein, whole grains, and fibrous vegetables are what's needed. This is basic nutritional science. If I ate a meal of nothing but fruit and royal jelly, I'd get sick as hell.

I'm 5'9 and I weigh 145 lbs. I play soccer, cycle, do kickboxing and am extremely active--much more so than the average person. I do not require 3000 calories a day to maintain my weight. I can't imagine anyone who weighs 110 lbs who is not an Olympic gymnast who would need 3000 calories to maintain their weight. Also, if antibiotics have given someone problems, yogurt and probiotic powder would help address that imbalance. I find it hard to believe that a year later antibiotics would still be affecting someone that way.

I'm also a vegetarian and I prefer to eat organic food when possible. I spend $2-250 a month on groceries total for myself.

I don't know, I definitely agree that the economy sucks and that getting by is very hard to do, especially in super pricey areas like NYC, but some of this person's problems, particularly dietary "requirements" seem to me to be rooted in something other than reality.

[rachellll.livejournal.com]

New York, unlike many urban locations, actually has an abundance of cheap options. The areas where I've found the prices of NYC to be most artificially and dramatically inflated were: Rents (the difference in monthly rent just between NYC and Philadelphia is at least $500/month, and that's not really comparable size, as the place in Philly will invariably be bigger), vanity products (such as dry cleaning, manicures, and hair care), and high-end food (if you want a truly luxory meal in NYC it'll cost obscene amounts of dough, this isn't to include cheap restaurants, of which there is an abundance in NYC).

Things in NYC that are cheaper than many other places: transportation (cab fares as well as subway/bus fare, particularly as compared to area covered), clothes (if you know where to shop), and cheapie meals (Papaya!).

It doesn't necessarily even out, but I know *I* never had to spend $40 a day on food when I lived there.

Still, good luck to her. Journalism is NOT a career one chooses for the money, no matter what the location.

[ladysoleil.livejournal.com]

Oh, I absolutely feel that they're in a bind, no doubt there. I'm merely lactose intolerant and that's a cross to bear in terms of expense- supplements and soy products are costly. I'd hate to be more restricted than I already am, both from a health and expense standpoint.

That said, some of the argument doesn't hold water, though. I'd think that there are other corners that should be cut long before one starts cutting nutrition. It's certainly expensive to live here, but there are things that can be done to save- I routinely walk, bike or blade to places I need to get to in order to save bus fare when I'm short. I put things on ebay to generate a bit of extra cash. I shop sales, get clothes from thrift stores, yadda. You get my point.

I'm inherently a cheapskate though, which is a mode of living that doesn't come naturally to people anymore. I read a really interesting guidebook on living a thrifty lifestyle and the author (Amy Dacyzyn, but I know I'm spelling it wrong..) contended that Americans are often poor because they're unwilling to prioritize, and that almost anyone can find "extra" money if they're willing to really sit down and think about their spending habits. Most of what we think of as "necessary" really isn't, past food, shelter and medical needs.

Anything else is essentially a luxury item, though people hate looking at it that way. To give you an example, my Mt. Dew addiction costs me approximately $350 per year. I'm not thinking about that when I put the $1.25 in the vending machine at work though. Walking to the train station one day a week puts $200 back in my pocket. Silly, yeah. I'm not thinking about having an extra $200 when I swipe my railpass. But it adds up. So, if I killed my soda habit and walked a bit more, guess what...that equals one month of my share of the rent. That's fairly concrete actual money, when you look at it that way.

I see where you're coming from though. I'd be doing a lot worse if I didn't economize as a matter of course, and it could easily be argued that since I'm in a 2 (well, almost 3) income household, I shouldn't have to, and it's a sad state that the cost of living is so out of control here.

I'm actually thinking I'll bounce over there and recommend that she look into getting one of Amy's books from the library. Might give her some ideas and perspective.

[inlaterdays.livejournal.com]

thanks - i'm sure she will appreciate the book recommendation! i wish i could economize better.

i feel lucky, though - i've got a cushy corporate job in affordable middle america, and no dependants except for my cat. i do have health expenses, but i've managed to work myself out of debt this year, so it's manageable for me.

i don't think i'd have been able to do it if i'd been on the east coast (because of family, work or whatever), so i really do know that my situation due to luck as much as to hard work. :/

i think i'm going to check out the book you recommended, too - every bit helps.

budget

[kungfugimp.livejournal.com]

I totally understand - I work a full time job, started a part time job - my husband has been working fairly regular film related gigs. I was lucky and had 4 glassblowing jobs (another part time job) - and where did all that money go? Cat vet - all gone, but I'm hoping he'll be ok.

So - I have to budget - to pay off the one card and keep on top of all the bills - we own our cars - and I budget our grocery bill carefully. Now - I will say this - the thing taking up my finances is the restoration.

I'm glad I'm not living in NY - but here in Florida you have to drive everywhere - there is no simple means of transportation - biking in 97 + degree heat? And I plan my car trips with the cost of gas.

(sigh) I'm planning to be debt free by the year's end and then I can really enjoy that cruise. But sometimes you just get those unexpected cost expensive situations.

[jruske.livejournal.com]

To DS-M: Move. Go somewhere that the cost of living isn't starvation. Your stipulation for the pay scale of part-time gigs is what I make full-time; good luck finding it.

For a variety of reasons, people convince themselves where they are is where they need to stay.

I find this to be utterly false.

While there is definitely an inherent cost in moving - especially if you've got loads of belongings - there are jobs out there for "semi-migrant" workers. People who are willing to pick up and move for a job, especially moving from a high cost area like the major cities or even certain states outright (California comes to mind), have an opportunity to really move forward rather than sinking further and further into the hole.

The other unfortunate fact is that if you have family, sometimes it's best to arrange to live together. In practice, this is how most folks lived in the average modern economy of Europe and North America - it's only in this short lived post modern bubble era that this has substantially changed. While people see moving back in with their folks abhorrent (I know I do), the truth is that in some circumstances it is the best for everyone as long as no one abuses the situation.

sigh

I'ts not going to get much better folks. Best to figure out how to downsize your belongings and expenses now. The artificial monkeyig with the economy ending the recession really is just stretching out the pain of what appears to be a debt correction cycle. In other words, get out of debt, own stuff, live off of cash, or eventually this economy will bankrupt you and effectively force you to that position.

[jruske.livejournal.com]

I'm inherently a cheapskate though, which is a mode of living that doesn't come naturally to people anymore.

It's sad but very true. It appears one thing mass media advertising has convinced people is that spending money today (and borrowing money to spend more today) is a way of life.

I have a friend who lives in Boston. Now I would never live in Boston - I like my 3-4 bedroom house with a whole room and fireplace for the library/den and a separate 400 sq ft room for the entertainment center and CDs and DVDs. Up there it would be cost prohibitive for me to live anything like how I did in Charlotte and DC is proving to be a struggle with additional costs associated with this area.

But he's lived like a college student for fourteen years now. And he argues that continuing to do that, for as long as he can, while setting aside the difference in cash, is the best budget planning he can imagine.

As I look around me at all the stuff I've accumulated that I will have to pay to move, never mind the amount of space I am accustomed to, I know he's right.

Too bad I didn't have the same vision 15 years ago.

curious...

[bitogoth.livejournal.com]

apparently this person is a neighbour. i can relate to some of the issues (no car, contemplating getting a roommate, food/health issues) but i think i would need more info before i could make a judgement about the situation. what sort of debt? how much is rent? and a full-time job can mean a lot of things... if there's no health insurance that could explain a lot right there.

*shrug*

[angel-renewed.livejournal.com]

Jesus H. Christ.

Dear DS-M,

Stop playing the f*cking victim. You're living in Northern NJ, not Auschwitz. Further, nobody HAS to live in Northern NJ. Move somewhere cheap (may I suggest the South) and grown your own food. Hell, down here you can grow food year 'round and there are companies simply groveling to get workers for a liveable (though not NYC) wage. Yes, you CAN live in FL on $8 an hour. People who think that life outside of the Tri-State area is a banishment worse than death but yet WHINE about how hard life is piss me off.

Suck.it.Up.

Your Pal,

AngelSil

Re: curious...

[ashbet]

. . . or they may work for a small company such as mine, where health insurance *just for me* would be over $500/mo (it'd be $640 for my daughter and I, not even *including* copayments or prescriptions. And I'm on five pills a day.)

Something like that makes a HUGE difference . . . lately, since my health has been really problematical (read: the doctors don't know what's wrong, my blood pressure is a fucking yo-yo from minute to minute, and I keep passing out . . . so they send me from specialist to specialist, each visit costing me $20 a pop), I've noticed that I have *much* less money available, simply because spending $20/$40 a week on doctor's appts adds *up* . . . and I eat leftovers from the previous night's dinner for lunch, and am very thrifty with groceries . . .

There's also an issue of "reaching escape velocity" when contemplating a move (to a cheaper area, etc.) . . . not only do you have to have a job and a place to live set up, but there are also expenses associated with the move, renting a truck, not-working for the amount of time it takes to pack and move, and so on . . . I'm only *here* now because I couldn't afford to move back to MN when I was younger and poorer -- I had nowhere to stay while I looked for work (although I did have friends who could have watched Kira while I did so), and I didn't have the money for a truck, and . . . I'm still in MD after all these years, having now put down some amount of roots in the meanwhile.

*shrugs* No idea what this person's situation is, and they may have debts or expenses we're unaware of, or they may be spoiled and believing that they need a big-screen TV to live, I don't know . . . but, yes, health problems are EXPENSIVE in today's world, don't let anyone tell you different :/

-- A

[tylorael.livejournal.com]

Note: I can get a very nice one bedroom apartment in Washington Park for 450$ a month, with no pet rent or pet deposite. I think I'm spoiled. If I'm willing to move into one of the outskirts, I could get an even nicer place. I *heart* denver.

thee book...

[ladysoleil.livejournal.com]

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/067974388X/qid=1085801888/sr=8-2/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i2_xgl14/102-6123535-9582540?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

Not sure if that link is going to work...author's name is Amy Dacyczyn and the the book is the "Tightwad Gazette" series. There are many of them.

Don't get me wrong. Amy is a nutball. Some of her advice is plain wacky. Most people aren't going to reuse their vaccuum cleaner bags, drink powdered milk and darn their socks. And most people shouldn't, either, because free time and enjoyment has value. The point is more about looking around you for opportunities to be frugal that can help you reach financial goals and get you thinking clearly about what you do with your money. Amy is nuts, but she's very good about being able to clearly delineate what is a necessity, what is not- it's a very different way of thinking than what we're used to, and often it's an eye opener.

Re: thee book...

[ladysoleil.livejournal.com]

note- she's disabled non-friend posting, so if anyone here is friended by her and wants to pass along the info, feel free.

[geekers.livejournal.com]

Amen.

Re: thee book...

[inlaterdays.livejournal.com]

will do; thanks.

i looked at the book myself on amazon.com and i am really intrigued! i like her point about re-using things. better than recycling, in some ways. i don't think i could ever get to the point where i'm re-using everything (tuna cans?), but i'm interested to see whether i can pick up some ideas.

i'm finding the debate/exchange of ideas on here fascinating, too, and i'm glad rafe re-posted and that people are participating and thinking about it, whether or not they agree.